Just a little consideration

If you don't plan on reading this whole thing I'd rather you not start.

I know that you guys have probably been around for awhile, and I know also that you've probably been using the system of power grids set forth by the creating admin (I think it's slamfist) to measure power. I see how having this type of system would be helpful in rating different aspects of a characters abilities and keeping people faithful to the capabilities of their characters. I'd like you to read this whole thing before coming up with counter arguments and comments, I'd like you make sure that you have a full grasp of what I'm saying before you begin to make a counter point. Mainly because I don't want to have to repeat myself if your complaint is with something I later address, and also because I want you to understand the point that I'm trying to make and why I'm making and what my arguments for it are and I don't want you to get caught up focusing on something that is irrelevant to the argument I'm making. Not because I don't like to be proven wrong or corrected, but because when that happens it takes the focus away from what the subject is about and puts it on asinine details that are besides the point. That being said, if you see something wrong, unreasonable or fallacious then by all means point it out.

Let me preface this a bit further by saying I know you guys probably get a lot of bitching from people, especially new people like me, telling you "well, I know a better way" or "you should do it like this." so I understand if you read this and aren't exactly keen on the propositions I make. I would, however, like to say that this is not me trying to vent my personal frustrations, or me being anal about some unimportant minutia, but trying to put forth suggestions to the site that I believe can/will make it better. I'm not some control freak who wants everything my way (at least not in this area lol). That being said, I'd appreciate a little consideration and open-mindedness when reading through my suggestions, and that you point out whatever flaws you see with civility and not condescension.

My first suggestion is one I believe wholeheartedly should be adopted, and I will probably lobby for it as long as it isn't; though I'll accept the word of administration and moderators, but unless I'm given logical and personally satisfying basis for it not being accepted, then I will continue to try and sell others on it. I'll get to the point. I think speed should be abolished from the power grid. And, for that matter, strength too. I believe, in their place, a new stat should take their place called perhaps Physicality, though I don't care what it's called. My main issue with this is the mechanics of it. Despite what many believe how fast you run isn't really a product of how fast your legs move, as even Olympic level sprinters have shown negligible difference between how quickly they can extend and retract their legs when compared to those of normal humans. I'm not citing this, because you can Google it and find out for your self if you really want to. Running speed is largely a product of how much pressure your foot exerts on the ground in comparison to your body weight. Which brings me back to my issue with how speed (and strenght) work via the current power grid system.

It does not seem to me that a man of average height and weight, let's say an even 6 foot and an even 200 pounds, could move at 6-8 mph when they're capable of even lower level superhuman strength, 2-20 tons (here is my problem with strength but I'll expand on that later). Top sprinters put up to four times their body weight in pressure against the ground when running, and can travel at almost 30 mph (these are both rounded up). That's our average man from above putting out a whopping 800 lbs of force per leg in a dead sprint, that is if here were a trained human. Now looking back over this I see you may get confused and think that the 6-8 mph remark is relevant to the example I'm making now; it's not, but it will be shortly. Back to the story. So that's 800 pound of force per leg, and a max speed of 30 mph. That 800 pounds of force is still not too impressive when you place it next to 4000 pounds as is the lower bound of what is considered "superhuman" and even less so when compared to the upper bound of that lower bound which is 40,000 pounds. I'm assuming super strength includes your whole body, yes? I only say this because I doubt some one with this range of super strength would kick someone or make a high vertical leap and be told "No, you can't do that, you're legs aren't strong enough.".

Basically, my point is that there should be no one who can lift a building, yet can only move at 6-8 mph, regardless of "Well they can just spend other point on that" it shouldn't be something that could happen. It that character has the physical power to move those weights in those ranges, then there is no coherent explanation why their speed should be clipped to such low levels, and thus no reason why someone would or should have to spend points for one ability that would logically be a by-product of their powers. It doesn't make sense. That being said, I don't think the idea of "superspeed" should be removed entirely from the sight. Instead I think it should be considered a non-physical power, and rely on EP to work. Why? In fiction speedsters are seen moving all parts of their body at superhuman rates, not just running fast. There's also a number of related abilities to super-speed that are non-physical that allow it to to work; enhanced reaction time and information processing, the ability not to turn into Ragu when you wipe out while going supersonic speeds, friction resistance and so on. Typically when a player puts high points in their speed they want these other abilities too I think. They want the improved reflexes and reaction times and the ability not to go splat if they trip or to run really fast in a circle and make tornadoes. So I think that this itself should be called a power. I read somewhere on here that travel powers take 2 ep, but that may be wrong. Regardless, the way I think to best handle this would be to have lets say, classes of superspeed. Some number of EP, let's say two, devoted to give you the abilities of characters like the flash and such. Let's say that one is just under the speed of sound or at the speed of sound. Then perhaps, a Class 2 that took one more EP that allowed you to move at some odd MACH speed, and so forth and so on as high as you would like to allow. Perhaps even to the speed of light, or until you get the ability to phase through objects? I don't know how you'll feel about these later suggestions I've made, but the idea to splice Speed and Strength in can be taken with out these other suggestions I've made.

My problem with strength that I mentioned before is just a nitpick. 2-20 Tons I think is a broad range of strength, and a really big difference in weight. My real problem is that there isn't a kind of way to know what this means in a more specific sense. What I mean is, is this an over the head dead lift? Is it a dumbbell curl? Is it with strain and clenched teeth? Is it with a smile while having some witty banter? You see what I mean? It's hard to know give the information in the stickied thread. However, I call this a nitpick, because it's a complaint without a suggestion. I don't know how this could be amended other than to ad some information and details to the power level Equivalents thread. But wait, there's more.

Another small problem is that I don't see stickied anywhere a list of powers. Well, it may seem very well intuitive to the staff, but while I'm trying to create my character, it'd be nice to have a list of at least the most basic or common powers, how many EP points they take, and if there's strong or weaker versions the potency of these different versions at different levels of EP usage. I don't think it would be too difficult to have a thread the listed "Plant Manipulation- Control Plants of such and such size easily, weak manipulation of plants larger than such and such size, cost 3 ep." Or something like that. This again isn't to abate my personal agitation, but to make things easier on everyone, new players, old players and staff alike. If people know, or can easily know, what it takes on their power grid to have what powers at what strength levels then they can play their character accordingly and the approval process can be expedited. Then again, it may be harder than I make it out to be, I've never been a mod or an admin.

I also have a suggestion for a different stat on the Power Grid; Energy Reserves. Again, I don't care at all what it's called I just think that name fits what the stat is for. I think external powers like fire blasts, EM manipulation, telekinesis should all still be governed by Energy Projection. I think that powers like personal regeneration (healing factor), senses, and perhaps even someones stamina (I know this is now the property of Durability, but it doesn't seem to me a good idea to have how tired someone gets linked to how indestructible they are). Perhaps even the aforementioned Super Speed power would best draw off of this newly proposed stat. The idea is that this is the amount of internal energy a person has and thus defines how much work they can do. So two people may have the same level of super-strength, but the one with lower Energy Reserves would tire first. Basically your stamina and how long you can work (fight) and any powers that don't extend beyond the range of someone's physical body could be governed by this stat.



I have one final complaint; I don't like the number seven. It's just not a good number. But this is irrelevant.


Now, you may have noticed that all of these complaints (except the one about the stickied list of powers and EP requirements) were about altering the powergrid. And I know that seems like a big change to a lot of people, and therefore a bad thing. But I am not proposing these changes because I think this sight sucks the way it is an needs new management or that I'm the shit and you guys should all do as I say. I'm saying it because, in the very short time I've been here, I've seen that this is actually THE best superhero rpg site I've found on the internet and I've looked at oodles and oodles. I think that this sight has a good community, and great administration, and a dogma free system of character approval and creation. I read around here, that this place is unrelated and unaffiliated with any DC or Marvel mythos, and that's one of things I respect the most about this place and the people who populate it. But the power grid is from Marvel. Now, I'm not saying that it hasn't served it's purpose, and that it still doesn't do an excellent job of measuring and keeping track of character powers. But I think that the way it is it is flawed, and it could be improved and that everyone would benefit from that improvement. That flaw I mentioned is not on the part of this site or anyone here, but of the grid itself. It's a creation of Marvel, and we here or free of any of those mythos or rules, so why restrict ourselves to using a device that's flawed when we see that it's possible to improve upon it?

I know this may seem like a lot of work or a big change, but I think that if one person took the time to make a revised power grid and posted it, it would not be too much work for everyone to adopt it and re-spec their characters accordingly. And I think the work it would cause would save a lot of problems going forward. As would, I believe a list of Powers and the Energy they cost. If you've read this to the bottom and honestly considered everything I've said with an open mind then thank you. If you've done that and have an argument against me then thank you doubly, as nothing get's resolved if people don't talk about it. It is a pleasure to offer to this community any positive input I can, and I appreciate being a part of this site. Thank you.

Not a Moderator, but still a member of the Community. Take it as you see fit. Very long read, but I'll try to address a few points I disagree with you on and I'll try to convince you as to why.

I get what you're saying about Muscle strength and speed, how its actually the Muscles that provide the torque and give enhanced speed in athletes. However we can't apply everything to athletes here. I have 7 Strength, and with this, I already utilize some of what you said already. The strength of my legs gives me powerful leaps. Leaping high into the air, or lunging at an enemy with full power beneath my legs. But in both scenarios, my strength gets me airborne. It isnt the same as running speed, its more like leaping speed. The gaps between steps are larger with more power behind ones legs and they can be easily knocked down since they don't have proper footing.

Speedsters on the other hand do everything fast. The rate at which their legs move are fast, as well as the rest of their body. My "Speedster" character is a Gunslinger, rapidly firing bullets with his enhanced speed. (And Fighting Skill reflects Reflexes, not Speed).

Reason two why Strength and Speed shouldnt be the same in the statsheet, is because it would become an overpowered and overly used and abused stat. To have one stat accomplish both, one would have to be a fool not to accept running at the speed of "The Flash" while punching like "Colossus". Fights would be boring and repetitive with so many "Stamina" users with max strength and speed.

Maybe youre not familiar with our system much, but 1-2 Energy Projection for maximum "Flash" speed would be rediculously overpowered as well. Just imagine how many points we have to spend Now, compared to after it only costs 1-2 EP. Everyone would do it, no lie. Me included. And once again we're drawn back to the "Repetitive battles" since everyone has the most powerful ones.

Lastly (for me), List of Powers. Granted, there isnt a list of powers. To me, it encourages people to tap into their creativity to make their own unique character rather than go off a "Guide to making a character". There are Point limitations for some things, but other abilities are undefined. Example, for your "Plant Manipulation", It can be 1-7 Energy projection. You choose, not the admins. However, the STRENGTH of your manipulation depends on how many points you invest.

On the other hand, what I call "Minor powers" are set powers that require a specific amount. Example, To have "Enhanced Sight" it costs 1-2 EP. The full 7 point investment isnt required. Some powers, if youre creative enough, havent been done yet. That's why there isnt a list of what powers cost. Because either way the Administration is going to have to help you. And it isn't like theyre going to let you waste points on your stat sheet. If they think you can get away spending less points, or think you need to spend more, they'll tell you.


-Sul

Popping in to give my two cents, I'm actually gonna go in reverse so sorry.

On the note of us using the Marvel power grid, no we're not a marvel/DC based sight but that doesn't mean we can't take useful bits from them. Hell sans fighting skill and perhaps energy projection, this grid is standard fair for most role playing games, super hero related or not.

Now on the note of a stamina bar that's a bit of a slippery slope, first it's a stamina bar for normal fighters, then a "mana" pool for EP users and a battery, durability etc. for items rather than allowing it to be freeform. If it's to make it so people can't do 20 actions a post, well then that's something that should be handled on case to case basis rather than a blanket cap.

Now, about the speed to strength ratio, I understand you're trying to apply practical science to this, I do it myself and to be honest, you're fighting a losing battle there, I've tried to apply it and it just doesn't work. One of my characters is over 400 and by all rights, should have cancer due to age (even if he is functionally immortal and his aging has stopped), or perhaps someone with invisibility powers or tech. They should be blind. period. the light wouldn't touch their eyes and thus the only way to attain true invisibility would be to blind yourself and either fight blind or have a secondary power that allowed sight of a different sort. You can apply this sort of thing to a wide variety of powers, like my other character Empathy, he can simulate the exact pain of being hit by a train or having your guts fed into a wood chipper despite never feeling those things in actually. I've found applying science to this sort of thing becomes an exercise in futility. While I know (if you're anything like me) that explanation won't stop you from trying to figure and understand and think, I just hope you understand what I'm saying.

On a random note 7 is a beautiful number, just like 1, 3, and 5. 4 is a god awful number.

Thank you for your input, mod or not I appreciate it. I would like to point out that I don't think that they should be merged entirely as they are. For instance, I think a 7 in physicality would be equal to that of a 7 and strength but not of speed. The speed levels of 5 and up would be and individual Speedster power I suggest, and the 2 EP I suggested may not be fitting (and I expected it wasn't when I typed it) but that's an arbitrary detail as I see it, it could be whatever, but I don't think it should be it's own stat. The physicality would strictly govern RUNNING speed, not speed of reflexes or reaction time or motion of individual body parts. The reason I even bring this up is because if you look at speed as it's listed, it's only running speed. The Speedster power would govern something like how fast your fingers move to pull triggers. Physicality would govern how much force you exert via your muscles, which like in real life, would determine how fast you can run up until the point where running any faster would be the domain of having the Speedster super power that I mentioned. So you would not get any one with Colossus strength and Flash speed by having a high number in the same stat, because the enhanced speed of physicality wouldn't get you up to even near sub-sonic speeds. Instead, it would synergize, for instance, someone with an Olympian physicality or Peak Human physicality to not having to put points in it. It would get rid of the cognitive dissonance that one can use their strength for things such as leaps but somehow not to run. Instead of thinking Flash + Colossus, think Juggernaut. If a character had a 7 DUR and 7 PHYS they would be effectively Juggernaut in power set. They wouldn't be what would normally be considered "super fast", just have a quick running speed that was more in line with what they're muscles actually do. So, a 7 physicality may give you speed comprable to perhaps a 4 or 4.5 in speed, or maybe even just a 3. Where as 4-7 would be a power that drew on the current energy projection system as a power. (or perhaps my proposed ER).

It is for the explicit purpose that speedsters do everything fast, whereas running speed is a product of strength, that I took the effort to separate them and explain that separation. Perhaps I did not explain clearly, but from how I understand what you said, your first criticism actually coincides with my reasoning. So as far as this goes, I am unconvinced.

On the power list, I think I understand what you mean and where you're coming from, with the magnitude of powers and not wanting to stymie creativity, so I'll concede that point.

Which brings me back a bit to the 2 EP you mentioned. If Super Speed were treated like a power then feasibly it could take up as much or as little EP as the user wanted, with the unbelievable god like Flash speeds being 5-7 EP. The exact numbering of that power is not of my main concern. My main issue is that Strength doesn't govern running speed. If Speed as it's used on this site is the entire body's ability to move quickly, then it should say that in the Power Level Equivalents thread in the first place, and not just have running speeds. That's my honest opinion. But again, my main problem is the idea that a character could move building's with their strength yet somehow run at only 8 mph.

So again, on the power listings you have convinced me, but I still have trouble with the way the speed of characters is not either determined by the strength of their bodies, or a separate super power.

I noticed you didn't mention my Energy Reserves suggestion, any thoughts on that?

[Merged By Ace]

Thanks for your two cents Henry, I appreciate it. I had a feeling when I was typing this someone was going to bring up the improbability of other powers XD but as you've noted, I went ahead with it anyways. Sometimes thoughts worm their ways in and you just have to express them.

On the Energy Reserves proposition, I understand what you mean. But with a text based RPG like this, nothing is really ever so cut and dry anyways right? I was just thinking it could be a pool to draw physical energy from or base powers in that were related directly to your body, like shape-shifting where as EP would still govern things like fire balls and such.

And I do get why using the power grid is helpful. But I believe altering can be helpful too.

And the only truly beautiful numbers are 42 and 69.

Ok, so i read all your points and the like took them into consideration and all, they're nice ideas don't get me wrong but we haven't had a problem with the power-grid before, at-least in the time i've been here, and you haven't given me a good reason why we should change the grid.

In response to your second post, if they shouldn't be merged completely why merge them at all, what if someone wanted to make a speedster charrie with strength too? Energy reserves, like ep, would basically be adding a second EP Bar for no reason, and we've already done that.

So, just on my opinion no, good ideas and all but our powergrid has worked rather well up until now, and above all, you havent given me a solid really good idea why we should change it.

Yours Sincerely
Ace
(Also, you have a fair amount of confidence to come to a forum and start making huge suggestions to change the site, its commendable at any rate)

Well okay, fine I quit this stupid place!


D':<

Just kidding. To respond to your question about a speedster with strength, that's easy. Just give them high physicality and the super speed power. Energy Reserves was more an idea I was experimenting with, mainly because I think EP deals with a little too much, but I don't have an abundance of experience dealing with it, so time will tell what opinions I form with more information. And by the way I am more than happy to continue on this site. I like it a lot the way it is, and if I didn't plan on staying here, I would not have wasted my time joining and making two characters, nor would I have done that if I didn't really like the site as it was already. Believe it or not, the fact that you guys have the power grids at all was one of the things that made me think "I have to join this rp" .I didn't join to shake things up, I joined to play. Well, that's not true, I like shaking things up in RP.

That said, I still am convinced I'm right. The only way I'll get peace is if I'm convinced otherwise, or you all are. Still, I can see that writing this up with in a week of joining may not be the wisest decision, but I stand by my view. In any rate it was nice to get feedback. I'll let sleeping dogs lie, you all say this hasn't been an issue before so I'll concede for now.

For starters, I'm not a mod - but I know this site as best as I can. Been here a while.

All right. Here's my.. cents.

The grid is positively "stolen" from Marvel. Who cares, though? (:

It's a nice base and let's us organize things. As goes for your 'physicality' bar. It's a horrid idea.

• Reason 1: A man that is strong may have the capability to run fast, but will possibly not be required to do so. Nor would he ever really need to.
  
• Reason 2: A man that is fast does not need to be strong to move fast. They just need to have the proper muscle ratio to run at their 'top speed.'
  

So, taking both of those simple reasons in mind; you need to also realize this is not a site (proper way to address a website, considering "sight" is a term addressing vision) based on real life. It is a site solely based on fiction and fictional characters.

Magic gets involved.

'Blood' lines get involved. Myths, etc, get involved.

I love that you're trying to dissect this like it were a science experiment. It's cute; but it's not necessary. And I doubt it ever will be.

So, with my bit of opinion stated to counter yours, I must welcome you to SHRPG and I am glad you're going to stay with us. (:

Affectionately yours,

UE.

Sorry for the short reply but I feel that you probably don't want to read through another 6 paragraph reply.

To sum up my argument against your powergrid changing proposals: Why change what has been proven to work?

Also, how i didn't pick up on this before i don't know, but Slamfist is far from the creating admin, The creating admin is Pain, Anyways, just thought i'd clear that up